VIOLENCE WORKS

So I posted a link on facebook today to some shocking pictures of anti-GLBT violence in Russia.  Above the link, I wrote this:

There is a certain segment of the US population that would like nothing more than for us to emulate Russia in this sense. Needless to say, these people are Nazi monsters.

Got some nice comments along the lines of "horrible!"  But then an old pal, who is a conservative Christian, posted this:

Bill Ron, I lived in Russia. They are by far one of the most intolerant societies, primarily toward blacks. They HATE black people...it's terrible. And yes, they are very intolerant toward gays. Our country, on the other hand, is the furthest thing from what you shamefully have posted on the web. Gays are not attacked during their gay-pride parades. I recently saw a video where the gays actually attacked some Christian protestors (they shouldn't have been there in the first place). This country is not Russia. Yes, there are hateful people in this country and they should be ashamed of themselves, but Ron, to link our great country to this backward country called Russia...that's pretty lame, Ron...pretty lame!

So I responded with this:

Ronald Bill, I'm talking about these Americans:

http://www.queerty.com/customers-at-salt-lake-city-gay-club-pelted-with-lit-flares-20120817/

http://www.queerty.com/il-prosecutor-rescues-gay-couple-from-attack-gets-stabbed-by-basher-20120925/

http://www.queerty.com/arrest-made-in-gay-bash-knifing-in-nyc-mcdonalds-20120926/

http://www.queerty.com/brooklyn-man-who-tasered-victim-charged-with-hate-crime-20121026/

http://www.queerty.com/alleged-elmo-sex-abuse-victim-attacked-in-latest-nyc-gay-bashing-20130603/

http://www.queerty.com/gay-couple-taking-romantic-stroll-in-new-orleans-attacked-for-no-apparent-20120323/

http://www.queerty.com/two-men-assaulted-by-five-baseball-bat-wielding-homophobes-in-dallas-20120315/

http://www.queerty.com/tulsa-gay-teen-savagely-beaten-at-party-by-guests-yelling-anti-gay-slurs-20120302/

http://www.queerty.com/ut-lesbian-beaten-by-men-who-dragged-her-into-their-truck-20111103/

http://www.queerty.com/attack-victim-burke-burnett-speaks-out-as-another-suspect-is-arrested-in-brutal-tx-gay-bashing-20111103/

Followed by this:

Ronald And it's a seemingly endless list. Gays and Lesbians in the United States are violently attacked everywhere all the time. This is, in fact, an appropriate comparison. It's just that the Russians are bringing the government in on the hate. There's always that possibility here.

And then we were having a real discussion:

Bill Well, Ron, you didn't post those websites in the first place. Secondly I lived in Russia and I have seen hatred in ways you haven't. Their government seems to be taking an oppressive approach to gays. Our government, on the other hand, seems to be appeasing the gay community. Bottom line, I believe all people are to be treated with utmost dignity and respect regardless of their beliefs, sexual orientation, political views, etc. I still believe that your comparison of Russia to America is a very poor choice. Unfortunately this will just turn into a seesaw battle of viewpoints. Lord, come quickly!

I have also met many Russians are loving towards the black community as well as gays.

Ronald Well, I did say "certain segment of the US population" in the first place. You're absolutely right that Russia is currently far worse than here. But the point is that such an urge exists in the United States. It's not just a few crazed individuals--like I said, this happens all the time all over the place. It is much better to be aware of what's going on, to condemn it vociferously, and hope that it can be stopped before it ever gets to the point it is in Russia. You know, a cautionary tale. Because it could, indeed, happen here.

Bill I know...I never condone violence motivated by disagreement or hatred. It is sad what is happening to religious groups (Coptic Christians in particular in Egypt) and homosexuals. It's pointless to kill or beat someone just because of disbelief or disagreement.

Ronald In principle, I agree. But just a little Devil's advocacy: historically, a lot of violence used in this way hasn't been pointless. Rather, it's been devastatingly effective in advancing particular political points of view. Communists and Nazis, for instance, fought it out in the streets of German cities for a time before Hitler took power and started rounding up the Communists. Lynching and Klan violence in the South served for decades to prevent blacks from exercising political power in the region. And, of course, modern terrorism has also achieved political ends successfully in numerous nations around the world. That is, violence works. And that's why the only civilized thing to do is to always condemn it.

Don't get me wrong about Bill. He and I disagree on many things, but he's definitely a good man, and willing to listen while at the same time advancing his own position. That is, I love discussions with him because they're real discussions. Would that all of us could do such a thing with each other.

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