REAL ART RERUN
MORE GREEN BASHING

This Real Art Rerun was first posted on December 14, 2003.

I think I've done a pretty good job of not airing any petty personal grievances here at Real Art over the past year. True, I've written about some personal experiences and how they relate to politics or culture, and some of those experiences have left me pretty angry, but I've always tried to focus more on the implications for the country or the world, rather than on myself.

Not today.

Today, I'm going to focus on what some might call an argument I had Friday in the Eschaton comment section. Friday was the three year anniversary of the Supreme Court decision that installed a chimpanzee in the Oval Office. Here's what Atrios posted:

The Day the Music Died

3 years ago today Scalia and the gang took a dump on democracy. To remember that, go give some money to your favorite Dem candidate (pres, congress, whatever...)

Good advice. After reading Atrios' blurb, I clicked on the comment section link to read some good ranting and raving. And it was good. I was surprised, however, to find none of the Nader-bashing that I had encountered there last summer--only a few short months ago, many of Eschaton's regular commenters were positively frothing at the mouth in outrage about their belief that Nader had thrown the election in Florida to Bush. I guess we're all entitled to our opinions, but that one opinion was conspicuously missing from a discussion where it seemed to belong, at least in the context of Eschaton comments. Hoping to provide some insight, I left this comment:

I, too, am still angry about the day the embers of our democracy were finally stamped out by the GOP. However, reading this thread makes me remember another Eschaton comment thread (that seemingly no longer exists) for this post last summer. I remember lots and lots of commenters blaming Ralph Nader and the Greens for Gore's "loss" in Florida. Where are all those self-righteous Democrats now? Are we finally all united in blaming the true bad guys? Or do the snotty Green-bashers blame Nader one day and the GOP the next?

Just wondering...

That's when I got a pie in the face, and, boy, did it hurt. A regular Eschaton commenter named "pie" immediately smacked me hard:

Ron, with all due respect...SHUT UP!

Please? We have determined many times that the Florida debacle and the Supremes are ultimately responsible for the outcome of the 2000 election. Shrubery was selected, not elected. Let's move on.

Thank you.

Ouch. Needless, to say, her response seemed, to me, unreasonable. Sometimes I just can't keep my mouth shut:

Gee, Pie, it was an honest question. I guess I missed it when all the Green-bashers changed their minds, but treating me like I'm a guest on O'Reilly doesn't really do much more to enlighten me. How can you offer "all due respect" and then tell me to "SHUT UP!" in the same breath?

That kinda hurt my feelings...

Given the intensity of her response, I was trying to soften my tone a bit, but I thought I had good reason to press the issue. I mean, she was pretty damned rude, after all. Here's what "pie" wrote back:

ALL the Green-bashers? I've seen a few. And we've been over this. Enough.

Choose your words carefully. Remember: those who live by the sword, die by the sword.

Huh? This was getting a bit weird. I wrote back:

Hey, Pie, what's the deal? Why so harsh? Like I said, I missed the arguments where this was decided. And what the hell do you mean by saying "those who live by the sword, die by the sword," anyway? Geez, it was an honest question, and you're treating me like I was some freeper or something. Why are you so offended?

For those not in the know, "freeper" is a term used to refer to right-wingers who comment at the ultra-conservative Free Republic website. Freepers often show up at Eschaton comments to stir things up, usually making absurd, unfounded statements. I bet most of them are high school debaters.

Anyway, at this point, somebody else, a commenter named Alex, piped up on the issue:

Okay, look, Nader didn't help the situation in Fla, but that is hardly the topic of this thread! So please take your gripe elsewhere.

In other words, I was seemingly forbidden to talk about it at all. Well, not wanting to offend people who's side I'm supposedly on, but still wanting to defend myself, I said:

Wait a minute, people get off topic all the time here, and, given the proclivity here to argue about Nader's effect on the Florida vote count, I don't think that my observation is unreasonable. I didn't even really want to start up big Nader debate, anyway; I just wanted to make the observation. However, now that I'm getting such flack about it, I've just gotta respond...jeez, people are pretty damned passionate about this topic, I see. I guess I missed out on some pretty fiery threads. Still, that's no reason to be so mean about it. I mean...it was just a thought, after all.

I was trying to be civil, but see where that got me with Ms. "pie" (if that's her real name):

Ron, it appeared to me that you were trying to start something. If you weren't, I apologize. I'm tired of hearing posters argue about this. I've not noticed anyone changing anyone else's mind either, so it's a waste of space or bandwidth. People should just agree to disagree and look ahead to the next election. There's way much at stake here. Way too much. Doesn't everyone understand that?

I guess I don't understand that. Personally, I believe that, if an argument is reasonable, it's reasonable to make it. "Pie's" last statement finally made me think that she's full of shit: she was essentially telling me that I was not allowed to make a particular argument whether it was reasonable or not. This is the kind of liberal censorship that I encountered when I was in college, ridicule instead of reason. I tried to point this out, in a soft-touch way:

Okay, Pie. Thanks. So, if I understand correctly, it's now considered common etiquette here, for the common goal of defeating Bush, to sidestep the Nader thing altogether? Just to keep from stepping on any toes...

She didn't get it:

Yeah, Ron. I think that would be best (not saying it'll happen, but let's try, okay?)

Now, back to the today's topic...

Aaugh! Not fair! Not fair! But, I left it alone. I wasn't in the mood for a rousing defense of my presidential choices, especially with someone who didn't even think I had a right to talk about it there--I think I would have been the bigger idiot for continuing under those circumstances, anyway. One thing this exchange made clear to me is that, even though there are fair arguments to be made about liberal electoral strategies, there are a lot of Nader-hating Democrats who are so utterly outraged by the Greens that the issue makes them lose their sense of logic, makes them ride on their heated passion, makes them downright crazy. Kind of reminds me of a lot of conservatives I know. I guess human nature is beyond politics.

Way later, one commenter, a guy named "Michael (in DC)," came to my defense:

I gotta stick up for Ron as a fellow eeeevuhl 2000 Naderite: In fact there has been quite a lot of gratuitous Greenie-bashing here and elsewhere in Left-Blogtopia right up to the present day, and even if Pie's intention is to say "please can we not have this pointless flamefest again can't we all just get along!!!", then pulling an O'Reilly is hardly the way to go about it.

Oh, and complaining about Ron's comment as "off-topic" is kinda weak given the freewheeling randomness of this and other recent Atrios threads...

...Look: you can say Gore won Florida (you'd be right), or you can say Nader made Gore lose Florida (you'd be wrong). You can't say both.

That was nice.

Because the Eschaton comment threads usually die down after a day or so (that is, people stop commenting), I poked my nose back in and managed to get in the last word:

Thanks for the defense, Michael (in DC). At the risk of getting another a Pie in the face, I'd say that the rude response I got does nothing but illustrate my remarks about self-righteous Democrats and snotty Green-bashers.

Who says liberals don't believe in censorship?

Indeed. Personally, I'd much rather argue with a sincere, reasonable conservative any old day, than a crazed, fire-breathing liberal.

Okay, no more airing of personal grievances for a while. I promise.

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